Ditra Flooring System Doesn't Make Sense
I've been installing tile most of my adult life. From the first introduction of Durock then Hardi board, Even back as far as metal wire and hand "dry pack" concrete bed floors. I personally prefer Hardi board for my installation as I understand the "water barrier" properties of this product and would recommend this product and use it exclusively in my own house as a tile underlayment.
Although I am always open to the introduction of new products and always open minded to something that might prove to be a better product or a improvement upon current installation methods.
I've know of many tile installers who swear by the installation process of the "Ditra" product. But upon a closer inspection of the product and the installation process both from a common sense and scientific prospective I have great concern regarding the quality and longevity of a "Ditra" tile installation.
First, why do many installers swear by the product I believe it is exclusively because it is so easy to use. It is light weight no nails needed no carrying heavy boards cuts easily with a knife and installs quickly .But I am not so concerned that my installer have a easy installation in my home but more so I get a quality installation that will last a lifetime! I am afraid this product doesn't live up to that expectation And here's why .
The "Tile Installation | Tile Repair " manufacturer requires the use of unmodified thin set mortar to both install the "Ditra" membrane on top of a wood sub-floor as well as then install again with unmodified thin set the tile on top of the "Ditra". This type of thin set is the lowest quality type of thin set available costing like $5 per 50 lb bag. Right on this bag of thin set itself it says "for use on concrete floors" It also says to use "acrylic mortar admix" in this product (prohibited with DITRA). Now using Ditra on wood floors is defiantly not a concrete floor installation. Instead you are adhering plastic (DITRA) onto wood with a product that states right on the bag "for concrete floor installation only" right on the bag!!! This thin set again is the lowest grade thin set available on the market . And your tile is stuck to your floor only as good as the thin set concrete you use to install it. Now common sense and science dictate to me that by using this product in the way the manufacturer suggests you are in fact getting about the lowest quality tile installation possible.
I've attached some photos of the thin set and the Ditra so you can see this for yourself and make your own decision on the quality of this very expensive product . Now I don't claim to know everything about tile installations nor do I claim " to be the best" I only offer my 30+ years of experience in installing tile and my professional opinion. I would love to hear from other expert tile installers on this issue. And again will approach these other opinions with a open mind. Regards chris
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| Ditra membrane adhered to floor with unmodified thin set |
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| notice this thinset mortar says on bag ad acrylic mortar admix for strength |
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| See this product stated for concrete floor installations Also notice it says meets requirements WHEN mixed with additive |
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| See how this thin membrane is adhered to floor with only UNMODIFIED low grade thin set to wood floor |
I mentioned earlier when I pulled this post aside in order to review and discuss the feedback we received with Chris. that Chris would read all the many contrary comments and consider his post and/or provide clear evidence of his stand. ButChris insisted I put the post back up as he stands by his original post. In my haste to put the post on hold, I erased the very helpful comments from all kinds of tile experts. I'd love to hear back from them. We appreciate your patience. Thank you. Diana.
When he began explaining why he does not like ditra he lost me. He states that the “manufacturer requires the use of unmodified thin set mortar to both install the “Ditra” membrane on top of a wood(en) sub-floor” – they do not. In fact, they require modified thinset over a wooden substrate.
ReplyDeleteHe goes on to state that “This type of thin set is the lowest quality type of thin set available costing like $5 per 50 lb bag. Right on this bag of thin set itself it says “for use on concrete floors”. First – it DOES NOT state that on the bag. Secondly he is obviously unaware that there are a LOT of different unmodified thinsets. Notice the particular unmodified he used, according to his photos, is customblend, the stuff I plainly state is only good when used as a sandbag?
Also, according to his photos, he is stating that ditra is garbage, while showing an installation of ditra-heat, it’s not the same product. His ‘reasoning’ and points he’s making seems to be a bit convoluted to me.
And using the phrase ‘common sense and SCIENCE dictate to me…’ is inaccurate, as it is obvious he is not educated in the science of how ditra works.
Thank you for your clear and detailed response. I have passed your comments along to Chris as he longer writes for this blog. I am hopeful he will respond here. Thank you.
DeleteDiana
I have heard Ditra can buckle up under the tile. I was also told, and Chris here confirms, that it's just an easy product to use for tile installers. Is it possible Chris is actually calling you spoiled installers and the greedy manufacturers who sell it and he is getting a lot of grief for it? He could be the only one being honest here. I'm gonna follow this post. I want the real answer.
DeleteI have not checked in here for weeks as the site is going through major changes. I am distressed to see so many negatives comments and very long rants not just on Chris's post on ditra, but it seems he's fair ground for some reason. I would not restrict comments as that's dishonest, but I feel this forum is not the right one for your complaints or issues with Chris, who is no longer associated with this blog. Perhaps writing him at his new blog would be best. I've asked some tile experts to review post and comments and rationally provide honest feedback. I will contact Chris about this current situation, and if I get tile expert feedback, will hopefully do the right thing for everyone. In the meantime, please contact Chris directly with your issues if not related to the Ditra blog post that started this wave of negativity. Thank you for your patience and understanding.
DeleteAn update. I made a decision to delete one of the long, very harsh "reviews" left here by former customer of Tile Excellence. I feel it was ethically the right thing to do as this is not the place to make such derogatory comments especially without stating your full name and verified URL. Regardless of Chris no longer writing for this blog, I will respect his business within the boundaries I'm working with and though I have not heard back from him as to what he'd like us to do, I believe forwarding any future comments NOT related to posts to Chris is the most honest and ethical decision. You can find his new blog on his company website @ tileexcellence.com I hope my decision does not offend the writer or other readers. It just did not seem fair, ethical or the right thing to do leaving this forum open for all to rant. An online review site would be the appropriate place I believe, not here.For those tile experts who have accused me of protecting this person or removing negative comments/posts in order to provide him damage control, I will again state I am doing no such thing. I did want him to have the opportunity to address such harsh comments. He has a lot of competitors I did feel he may have acted in haste on this one post, and with so many experts disagreeing, I felt he [Chris} needed the opportunity to review his post and the comments and do whatever he felt was right. He choose to stand by his post and had me repost it, which I did, and now he's being attacked. So I have moral and ethical obligations to my clients. Sorry if you don't agree.
Deleteas a tile expert, you should have known it was non-modified thin set that should have been used with the ditra.
ReplyDeleteThe fact you have not even responded the to professional tile expert who point by point explained why each of your statements were wrong, and he nicely explained how you clearly did not understand science or the ditra system, and even held up the wrong bag during your rampage against this great product. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, and have no respect towards those that do know, and it is clear you are not open to other experts in your field as your post says because if you did then you would have pulled your stupid post and issued an apology, You did not answer my response either which deals with the ridicoulous and complete screw up you had with the thin set. Unbelievable, I came here since I do lots of home repairs myself and you have been pretty easy to follow. Dumbied down I guess, But you helped answer questions as I went. I am having floors replaced and Ditra was recommended by a tile installer in your area actually, He is expensive. I thought I'd come here for the cheap, upfront answer. I am really disappointed. I think you are acting very unprofessional and superior. You aren't though, so you just look stupid and arrogant, no offense. Even your writer, researcher (?) covered for you or at least tried to but you made her put it back up. I feel real bad for that lady. You didn't even act like a man and take responsiblity. You let her hang, which she did voluneteerely like a professional, and you did nothing. Wow...it gets worse the more I think about it, so I am going to leave now and never return. You should not write a how to blog on anything. You are really not very smart. Sorry.
DeleteANONYMOUS again??? if you are so much of a professional tile installer why do you post Anonymously . I do my homework every day on the job ! I do all jobs personally and stand behind my work 100% . Dirta is in no way as good a Hardi board nailed/ screwed every 4 inches . I would never use it in my house and stand 100% behind my original post on this product. I may get slamed and bashed by 100s of people out there but that doesn't change the fact of my professional opinion. And I would be a very weak individual to cave under because of some pleasure from a bunch of people who are even afraid to leave their names with their opinions. As a mater of fact seems opinions are worthless without a name and reputation to back it up
DeleteIt was very precise straight to the point show the exact details on the backs of the product used it was wonderfully informative to the customer and was going to save a lot of people lot of problems and heartache as far as details information facts and quality it was a very good one.
ReplyDeleteIt's very clear the pictures show the. [I knew] he facts would be controversial but no one can argue with the pictures and the exact statements of the product those guys just want an easy tile installation and they don't like the fact that the facts are out there how can you argue with facts that are in your face? I'm sorry so the facts on the bag the fax from the manufacturer the truth that that's the lowest grade 10 sec it doesn't matter with those guys say the truth is right in front of your face and they're just making their cells look stupid not me because it's right there clear as day.
chris
Thanks for stopping by Chris. I hope next time you do that you respond to some of the actual Ditra comments as that is the issue of conflict here, not disgruntled customer.
DeleteArrogance?? You be the judge.
ReplyDeleteAfter an initially acceptable job on a simple marble floor, I had Chris Lawson do a custom tile bath and an expanded marble floor. The tile corners were left terribly uneven, big areas of grout were left unfilled, the floor tiles were popping and shifting in less than a week, and the floor of the bath was so poorly executed that it did not drain correctly. The work was so shoddy I had to pay someone else to remove it and redo it. Chris Lawson agreed to give me my money back but then stopped taking my calls and totally stiffed me. I later found out he had dumped thinset down my toilet drain, which I had to pay a plumber to remove. If you don't mind horrible workmanship, messy clean-up of his tools and scraps in your yard, and his cigarette butts in your driveway, the seemingly low price will be a good fit for you. I'm so hacked off about Chris Lawson's unprofessionalism that I would happily take calls to tell you not to work with him - John/617-331-4110.
This customer post is taken completely out of context. Go to the BBB and see the complete post and reply. This customers comment and reply was actually posted on my own web site tileexcellence.com
Deletefor many many months. Used as a example of customers you never want to work for.
This customer continually walked on the freshly tiled / marbled floor for 3 days in a row and broke messed up and sunk the freshly installed materials. Each time blaming my work and denying even entering the bathroom.I fixed the floor each time 3 days in a row until he claimed my work so bad not to return to his house.This customer had every opportunity to have his job done to his satisfaction if he had been reasonable truthful and ethical. I do aprox 100 jobs in the boston area each year for over 14 years in the north shore area. This job was a real learning experience that year along with another in BYfield ma. Now I am much more particular who I accept to do jobs for. Because some people you couldn't satisfy even if you laid their tile in gold..If you want to know more about this customer and his complaints please go to BBB.com and see the tile excellence reviews and read my full repy regards chris
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